I was with Esurance for a while. I really like this company, customer service was always on point and they were always there to assist me when need. I was very satisfied. I could always call if I had a financial hardship and they were there to work with me. I had never had an accident, driving record was good. I ran into a life changing event and could not pay the payment by the cancellation day and only need two days to make the payment, because I recently lost my job and with the new job I was waiting on my check to deposit. I called them, explain to them the situation and there was nothing they could do. I am a single parent trying to catch up on bills and only needed two days. They cancelled me and I had to go with someone else though I am not happy where I am. I refuse to go back because as a valued customer they refuse to assist me when all I needed was two days, was even willing to post date the payment. A loyal customer they have lost. Hell I can't even afford to get my children Christmas gifts trying to pay rent, car note, insurance, and to speak of gas prices. All I needed was two days...WHAT A SHAME.
I recently tried to insure my freshly purchased car. They refused providing insurance to me. They said because my cc billing address is from the different state - I have to prove I am living at the address on my driver's license. I did. But then they said they do not trust me I will be the only one driving this car because my relatives live right next door to me. Pay twice more or no insurance. Well, BAD review and insurance elsewhere...
We have been insured with this company for about 7 months now. I will be switching to another company later today. We got a free quote online from this company back in May of this year. The rate quote looked good, so we gave them a chance. When the policy was actually issued, the premium was higher than the quoted price, but was still reasonable compared to other quotes that we had received. Then in September, we received a billing notice indicating that our premium was being increased by $132.00 in the middle of the policy term, with no explanation given. We had not made any changes to the policy, No claims or moving violations, Nothing had changed.
So I called Esurance and spoke with one of their licensed agents, to try to find out the reason for this rate increase. The agent indicated that they didn't have an answer immediately available for me but they would research it and get back to me in a couple of days. I waited a few days and had not heard anything back from them, so I called again and spoke to another licensed agent, still no answer but I was told that they were still "researching" this. This went on for a couple of weeks, back and forth. FINALLY, after about 3 weeks, I received a call back from Esurance with an answer. The answer that they had given me, was that their "computer" had removed the Multi-Car discount from our policy retroactive to the start of the policy term. We have 3 vehicles insured on this policy!!
Fast forward to the policy renewal, November 11th. We paid the first monthly premium for the new policy term before the renewal date, We then received notice that they were going to deduct the next monthly installment on November 16th, Only 5 days after the policy renewal date. If I pay for a month's worth of insurance, I expect to get a month's worth of insurance, Not 5 days. And the fact that it took them 3 weeks to provide an answer to what should have been a simple question. This simply is not acceptable to me and shouldn't be acceptable, period.
I was involved in accident, partially my fault. I immediately called Esurance, was instructed to the towing co. and local body shop they recommend. My car was taken there and repairs began the next day. There was a lot of damage and the car was considered to be totaled, which, financially for me would have been best because my trade in value dropped 25%, but it was a couple thousand dollars short so they deemed it repairable. Joe Hudson Collision Center repaired the car and they did an outstanding job. It looks as good as it did when I bought it brand new.
I am new to Esurance and had only been a customer for about 7 months. I read many negative reviews after my accident and decided after reading them that I was surely going to be in for major disappointment. I am very pleasantly shocked at the ease of this whole ordeal.
I have been a policyholder for a few years and my daughters car was vandalized on her birthday 11/24/13 which is traumatic enough. The claim was reported on 11/25/13 and we were told to download photos on our phone. I personally sent the photos via email on 11/26/13 and I have yet to hear from anyone regarding the next steps. I called the express team after being told they are the ones handling which is quite ironic. I was transferred to a Brian and when I asked his name he told me I don't need to know that. I advised my name is Ann Marie ** and I would very much like to know who I'm speaking with and he refused. I then asked to speak with his boss and his name and he said his name was Derrick and says he is not giving out his last name. I asked for the CEO and was told Gary and he indicated the same thing as before. I told him I thought he was rude and would call the CEO.
Now, as a policyholder and out of courtesy I think I deserve to be treated with respect and this Brian was very rude. He should be ashamed to take a pay check on a monthly basis because he is not doing his job by handling customer service complaints so they are not elevated unnecessarily. II did call the customer service dept. and found out his name.. BRIAN **! And now I understand why he did not give out his last name.. I would be embarrassed too. But putting aside that sarcastic remark is this the policy at Esurance not to give out last names? I just want to have my claim resolved in an efficient manner with good customer service. I do pay my premiums and thought this was a given.
Don't do business with Esurance!! I thought that they were a reputable company since they're affiliated with Allstate. Wrong!!! I was cited for a car accident that wasn't my fault. I made it known to Esurance that I planned on fighting the citation in city court, and I explained exactly what happened. My claims adjuster, after reviewing the evidence (i.e pictures, police report, "victim's" statement) said that clearly the person who hit me is lying and that all of the physical evidence points to my story being true. He even said that the people who hit me clearly rehearsed their stories and planned on using me as a meal ticket. He told me that he was denying their claim.
It took them nearly a month to receive my payout for my vehicle which was totaled! After not hearing from them for weeks, I called to see what was happening with my case. My claims adjuster then informed me that his superiors decided to pay this woman for damage to her car! In other words, they rolled over like a dog with its tail between its legs simply because the other woman's insurance company made a benign threat!!! Then they had the nerve to tell me they were protecting my interests. My adjuster assured me that now she can't come after me personally for property damage. When I consulted my attorney, he said that unless they paid her for personal injury, she can indeed still come after me. When I confronted them, they admitted that in fact the other driver could still come after me!! So much for protecting my interests! They wanted to save themselves the cost of providing me with a good lawyer! My attorney also informed me that Esurance should not have paid any claims to this woman without informing me first. My attorney said that Esurance has been shady and dishonest throughout this entire process!! He has been in practice for over 20 years, and says he's never seen a car insurance company pull the stunts that Esurance has.
I've been with Esurance for 2 years. A couple of months ago I scraped the side of my car on my gate. I went to Esurance "E-star" repair facility. They did a terrible job on my car. I went to another body shop, and Esurance had to pay again to fix my car and supply me again with a rental car. Just got my renewal and my rates went up by $500.00 for six month policy! I called Esurance and told them I would have to cancel and find cheaper coverage. No problem for them! They didn't even try to work with me to lower my rate and keep my business. What a scam!!!
The Esurance website has an on-line form for potential customers to receive a quote sent to their email address. That is where the scam begins. One fills out all the information, four pages worth, but the website won't take it... leading one, who has already invested 1/2 hour into filling it all out and trying to figure out if they are doing something wrong, to call the company. The man who answered the phone did not want to talk about what I could be doing wrong or why the on-line process isn't working. He just want me to give him all of the information again and give me a quote. When I asked him if the on-line quote form was just a gimmick to get people to call, he was silent. I said goodbye and hung up. I wouldn't want to deal with a company that begins a relationship with a customer with a misleading practice.
Purchased insurance on 2 SUV's, neither my husband nor I have any accidents or traffic infractions. We even take defensive driving courses so that we may also receive a discount. We received an email for our policy renewal. We were shocked that our policy was $100 more. I called and was told that our rates went up because of other drivers in El Paso are having accidents & it's costing Esurance more to operate in the state of Texas. What?? Esurance is an online-based company which confused me & why are my rates going up when we have clean records? I thought that the people who have infractions & accidents rates go up? Time to look for another insurance company; my rates should be going down not up.
First of all, I have read many other negatives about this company which prompted me to cancel a policy I bought with them ONE HOUR after I bought it. Service with these guys never even started for me. They said that people changed their minds all the time. A woman named Dawn told me a check would be sent to me shortly even though they had been paid via PayPal. I received a check a week later which today has shown as bouncing by my bank. This is called check fraud and both my bank PP and other resources have been warned about their illegal activity. If you use PP with them even once, you are authorizing them to arbitrarily take your money automatically whenever they want unless you tell PP to cease the authorization.
Don't use these people please and save yourself the total hell I am going through right now trying to get my money back that they decided they want to keep. I never had a policy with them (it was cancelled way before the intended start date) and they have been an abomination to deal with. I imagine they prey on the weak and those needing to save a buck - go to a reputable company - Allstate should be ashamed to be linked to these scammers.
I have had auto insurance from Esurance since 2010. Currently they insure my 2001 RX 300 Lexus with full coverage for $73.48 a month. I have a clean driving record. My policy is up for renewal and the new quote is now $530.37 a month - a whopping 7X higher! I called them and it was no mistake. They say that I added more miles to my yearly estimate, which as I recall was only an additional 8000 more per year. It is clear that they use this method to get rid of customers they feel are potential claimants. Why not cut down their odds? After all they collected money from me for 3 years without one claim. Is this legal? At the very least it is an unfair business practice.
I want them to be taken to task for this practice, and if they are not within their legal right, they should be penalized. Personally, I will not do business with them again. But isn't it ironic, it seems that is exactly what they want.
I don’t write a lot of reviews but I was so angry with Esurance for the entire time I was covered through them I decided to write one. The final straw came when they said they were canceling my insurance because I couldn't provide utility bills showing my brother doesn't reside at my parents’ house. I told them he didn't live at the address and they said he was in the same town and that was close enough. They also wanted my parents, sister, and brother license #. If I didn't provide their personal information they were canceling my insurance. They never would provide valid insurance cards and when I used their site to try and get one, they were always expired. I would call and call and they would say no problem or use the site.
I think in the 5 years I had them, I only had one maybe 2 valid cards the entire time. For basic liability they were charging me 200 and I was paying it because I thought it was full coverage which I signed up for. They switched it at some point without informing me and without a rate decrease I never picked up on it. I finally had it with all their shenanigans and switch to another CO. I’m paying so much less and actually have the comfort of having a valid insurance card.
Do NOT use this company. They are scam artists. Shame on Esurance for ripping people off for hundreds of dollars and not providing the service they claim to offer. I will do my homework prior to using another insurance company again. Cancelled my policy effective today! Daughter got in an accident in my car. Not covered because she was driving. I covered my vehicle, not my daughter. Be warned and I will tell everyone I know not to use this joke of a company. This needs to have a "no star" option.
I just recently wrote a review of my experience with Esurance (Oct 8th). While I have canceled my policy with them, David from Esurance handled my complaint very professionally and courteously. I did get the $130.00 they took from my account returned. Thank you, David!
This company claims that I called in June and requested paper mail instead of electronic so they charged me $25 every 6 months. I told them that I never called and someone within their company did this and I am not going to pay for it. I prepaid for my insurance and should have till the 15th worth of coverage. The representative argued with me and said, "No as of 10/9/13 12:01 tonight you will no longer have insurance unless you bring your bill back up, $5.00 late fee, $25.00 for paper mail and two months insurance payment." I told him this is deceitful and just cancel me. Going back to Progressive. The representative didn't care so now I'm going to tell my story everywhere.
I became a customer of Esurance around Nov of 2012. At the time I had no tickets or accidents and my husband had just gotten a speeding ticket (45 in a 35). I had no problems until May of 2013 when Esurance tried to raise my premium because I called to report that they had my information wrong. I told the representative that my name was Paula not Paul, and that my zip code had been changed by the post office. I told them my new zip code and the representative said my premium would be going up because my zip wasn't found. It was too new, so they put me in another zip code that had higher premiums because of where it was!
I didn't move. The post office changed my zip. Not my fault. Right? They said that because they couldn't find my new zip they had to issue a zip close to mine!?!?? My premium went up over 100 dollars!! I told them I wouldn't renew. I wasn't going to until a customer service agent called and said my zip code had been added and my premium went down 200 dollars! Then last November I hit a pole in a bank parking lot. They paid for the damage, raised my insurance over 200 dollars, then went back in 4 months later and took another 130 dollars! When I ask they said it was for a speeding ticket my husband had that they had missed way back when we signed up!! I think they are a flakey company and I am NOT renewing my policy!!
I started my policy on Aug 30 2013. I was quoted for $1058 for full coverage for 6 mths. On Sept 20 2013, my policy went up to $2600 for 6mths. Esurance claimed I was at fault for an accident when I wasn't. Corrected the issue at the DMV. My premium only went down to $2400 for 6mths. Cancelled my policy on Sept 25 2013. Esurance still tried to bill me for insurance. They claimed they back dated my policy for the premium difference. Esurance refused to pull my calls to verify what I was quoted on Aug 30 2013. I would not recommend Esurance to anyone. They make up information and expect you as a consumer to just pay for things that is a company error.
I've been with Esurance since around 2010. I have never had an accident with another vehicle and I have no tickets. I have a spotless driving record. I just recently moved to Arizona from Utah and found out that my insurance is not going to be renewed and that Esurance in AZ will not cover me any longer. I started to call around and found out that Esurance or the people who handle their coding on accidents miscoded a claim when I hit an animal in 2011 as a Collision claim instead of being a Comprehensive claim. Also Esurance told me when I filed the claim that this would not be on my record. In 2012, I admitted to an accident was my fault when I backed into a post at night in a parking lot at a restaurant in CA that was painted black instead of yellow. It cracked a tail light lens and I accept that one.
Then March of 2013, I bought a new truck and it was vandalized and police even did a report stating it was criminal activity. This was not supposed to even be on my report but it was. In May 2013, I was on vacation using my pickup pulling my 5th wheel camper and I turned too sharp cracking the window on the back of my pick up. I felt so bad that when I called Esurance I asked if I should just pay for this myself so it won't go on my record and they advised me to file a claim, so I did. I have to accept 2 of these accidents but not the vandalism and not the deer. I've probably only filed 8 claims in the past 30 years of driving. So now because of 2 accidents I couldn't help... my auto insurance went from $170.00 for full coverage on 2 cars to $350.00 month.
After I made a big down payment and then pay one payment after that, I received an email from saying I had moved and my policy would be canceled. I could call and purchase a new policy in "my" state. The new quote with the same coverage increased dramatically and although I did not have a payment due on the old plan until 2 more weeks, I was expected to come up with $301.00 down payment and my monthly payments would increase. I have a copy of my application and I did not enter a wrong address of a post office box. However the CSR said that I put a Wisconsin ZIP code in for the where the car was stored in the garage. Do I live in one state and store the car in another? I do not believe I did that and even if I did, my home address, the place I was purchasing the plan, did not change. It is just a way to screw more money out of the insured. I am not paying that and I am filing a complaint with the Illinois Department of Insurance. Since they don't seem to know what state I live in I guess I better contact the Wisconsin Department of Insurance too.
Filed a claim 9/2 due to damage caused by trying to avoid hitting a deer but connected with the animal enough to send truck spinning and hit median. We have been policy holders since 09. Filed a report with the Police the same day. My brother was the driver. We are covered for all liability as well as Comprehensive coverage & deductible and Uninsured driver. 9/3 I went online to see why no one had contacted us as well as I was trying to familiarize myself with our coverage. After making changes I didn't mean to and noticing that the claim said "closed", I called customer service. The woman was very nice. She not only corrected what I changed, she updated our address which dropped our payment. She then informed me it hadn't been assigned yet but was sent to the Denver claims office. She updated my contact info and said to wait.
On 2/4 called C/S again and spoke to Claim rep. He informed me he e-mailed us due to no phone number available. We spoke about the accident. He spoke with my brother but I had to jump in to inform him my brother is disabled but licensed and to speak slow etc. I was told a collision shop 1 mile from my house would contact me. 3 days later no call. Had my brother call Claim rep, truck not drivable. 2/6 realized collision shop e-mailed. Contacted shop and told they no longer had info. Called claim rep. He said he was sending appraiser. 2/9 nothing. Called rep, was told appraiser would call to make appt. 14 calls later and 10 days since claim, I got angry and called the Woman from the collision shop. I explained my situation… in tears by now. She said there was no reason it should take this long. She calmed me and told me she would make a call and see what she could do. Keep in mind she works at Collision shop.
20 min later, the appraiser called and made apt for 8am next day. Appraiser Joe was kind and also informed he would have called sooner but did not have contact info, showed me his paperwork. He said he would put his report through that afternoon 9/13. I called Rep, out of town. Called supervisor. I was told claims take time, but I explained to her that it took a woman who doesn't work for Esurance to get an appraiser to even come look at my truck and 11 days. She said claim was being investigated, set phone apt for 10:30 wed 9/18. Insurance payment and renewal 9/19 very convenient. I was charged a full payment although truck according to appraiser Joe was a loss/totaled out. No adjustment for inoperable vehicle... nothing.
Wed 9/18, investigation lady called and set another apt for Friday 9/20. She also said there is no evidence to support contact with a deer… It took 11 days and Doris from Collision shop for the damage to even be LOOKED AT, oh and someone stole speakers by the way. It took 21 phone calls, another insurance payment for a truck I can’t drive and 20 days..... and now there is no evidence to support my claim??? 5 years of paying insurance and this is how we are treated. I am more than ANGRY. My brother may be disabled but he answered truthfully and the best that he could. My next move is to contact the BBB. I don't appreciate how we have been treated. I really don't appreciate making an insurance payment for a truck that does NOT WORK. And it’s very sad and truly a letdown to know that they don't appreciate our business. 5 years of insurance coverage. As of now the claim is open. But considering how Ms. ** the SIU investigator spoke to me last Friday, it was made clear they were not here to help. Shame on you.
Esurance was great in every aspect with my claim. My wife had a wreck and even though no ticket was given, it may have been her fault. The claim went so smooth with our claim and even with the price they paid for our car was excellent. In fact it was Kelly Blue Book dealer retail that they paid. I have read other comments and all I can say is they were great to us. PS: After our claim, our renewal was due and I thought here it comes - a huge rate increase, but to my surprise, only a moderate increase, still way below any insurance company I got quotes from and I did get several.
I was in an accident on July 17th of this year, and 2 months later, my claim is still open and I haven't heard from my representatives at all since first contact. They've given me no advice in how to proceed in my situation. I was shocked to learn that there would be no investigation of the damages to my vehicle, and I was told the claim process usually took a little over a week. Meanwhile, I am racking up debt from a tow company who's holding my totaled vehicle which I originally bought for $600. I know it doesn't mean anything to a company like Esurance, but the vehicle is all I had. Now I have to struggle to work, and live, and Esurance tries raising my rate before even making a determination in my case! I have nothing left. I want my car replaced. I've been to court, DMV, tow yard, police station... to fix this mess and what has my insurance done to help? Nothing. But you're happy to keep taking my money. I've heard from the other driver's insurance company more than my own. And I think 2 months is too long to wait.
I had insurance with AllState for several years and after purchasing a new SUV I decided to shop around. Esurance had a great price and I found that Allstate had purchased Esurance so I thought the switch would be great. I was so wrong. My daughter hydroplaned her car and I filed a claim online. It took forever for the agent to get back with me. I emailed, called and went through several recorded prompts and had to leave messages. When I finally do get up with her she is rude on the phone.
She informs me that someone has looked at the car and that I can take it to the body shop to have it repaired. I wasn't given anything detailing the repairs or what was wrong with the car. I questioned repairing the car because the entire front wheel axle was bent in and the car also wasn't starting after the accident. She then told me that the body shop could call them about any further damage to the. A month later we get the car back and it doesn't want to crank. It finally died a week later and I had to tow it home.
Now what do I do? I'm left with a car that can't be driven and that I'm still paying on. I believe the problems were due to the accident and I'm upset that my concerns were not answered or even looked into. She acted like she had better things to do than be bothered by me. When I was with All State I was never treated this way. Everyone from the operator to the claims adjuster was professional and polite. I felt taken care of. I even talked to the person who did the adjustment prices. This was not the case with this company. No explanation of anything. I feel like the red headed step child with this company. As soon as I can I am going to switch and hopefully prevent people from making the mistake I did.
I was hit by an Esurance insured Motorist. The Motorist wanted to settle without even asking about my physical condition at the time of the accident. Esurance told me to take the vehicle to their preferred repair center who evaluated my vehicle to be easily repairable within 2-3 days and the cost to be in $1400 range. Something seemed totally wrong considering the damage to the vehicle. I decided not to go to Esurance preferred collision repair center. Instead I took my vehicle to another better collision repair center. I was told the vehicle repair will cost more than what Esurance preferred collision repair center had estimated. The collision repair shop asked Esurance for approval for repair. Esurance came up with an improper evaluation of the vehicle. They decided the cost of a different LE version of the van instead of XLE which we owned. This is not fair. I was driving a good vehicle till it was hit and turned into a salvage condition. Moreover, I was hurt during the accident. 3-4 weeks of back pain. 1 visit to the doctor.
My car got rear-ended, and going through the process and speaking with the customer service got me frustrated. The service rep name is Lamar, and he asks questions as if I was the person who did it. I understand this is the process but do you need to make it even more bad than it is? If this is the type of service I'm getting, then I am re-thinking of continuing with another after this. Not even one star is good enough.
I had an accident with my 1996 Lincoln Town car in August of 2013. The town car is in nearly mint condition and I am constantly making sure that the slightest of mechanical problems are addressed and repaired. I took the car to the body shop that they preferred I use and the repair cost was valued at $3600. The appraised value was $2800. Yep, total loss. I have tried everything with this company including paying nearly half of the repair value and reducing their share of the repairs to $2000 but they will not budge. They insist on paying me the $2800 and turning my car into a salvage car. They will not pay anything to repair the car. In my opinion, they are extremely unethical and must be in significant financial trouble, thus the buyout by Allstate. They know that the salvage value of my car is easily 5 or 6 thousand dollars. The emails that I get from them are filled with lies and threats in an attempt to intimidate me into signing over the title. Perhaps Allstate can shape them up... but I would definitely stay away from doing business with them.
After posting my initial complaint, I did receive a call from Esurance's customer service department. The first pleasant call from Derek assured me that the initial experience was a fluke and that my future dealings would be completely different. Steps I've taken so far to try and achieve resolution to a DUI that ESURANCE claims I've been convicted of.
Upon direction from ESURANCE, I PAID for and faxed a complete driving record (nowhere on my driving record is a conviction of DUI, DWI, or any derivation of: “"Thank you for your email. In regards to the DUI/DWI violation from 09/27/2009, you would want to contact your local DMV to dispute. If the violation is reporting in error, your local DMV would be able to give you documentation stating that information."
After receiving the runaround and a few more consolation calls (our underwriters are working on it), I literally remained on hold for 32 minutes 8/26/2013. The gentleman then told me that decision was reaffirmed because the driving record that was faxed was incomplete? Ok, why do I have to chase Esurance down for a response? This information could have been easily emailed, mailed, or left in a VM.
I, AGAIN, called and PAID for another driving record to be sent to ESURANCE 8/27/2013. I received a call explaining that ESURANCE is reaffirming the decision to calculate my rates according to a DUI/DWI conviction, AND that even though my driving record has NO MENTION of either, I would now need an additional court document that states that I wasn't convicted of such? After some back-and-forth, I requested to have this request in writing. The wild goose chase continues...more of my valuable time and money will be spent.
To add to the story of Esurance not replacing my engine after it was damaged due to a car accident, now I get a call stating that Esurance is settling with the driver who hit me. I don't understand how a person who makes a left and hit my driver's side wheel and door and gets hurt sues me. I was going straight. I was found not at fault and they pay the negligent driver a settlement. This is just unbelievable. I feel a lot of anxiety when I drive now. I have been doing a lot less driving lately and I used to love to drive but knowing in the back of my mind that someone can hit me on purpose and turn around and sue me causes me to have a fear of driving now. It's not fair the way consumers are treated. What is going on here? I feel so violated by an insurance company and my life is affected by this whole experience with ESURANCE.
I was in a car accident Oct 30 2012 that I was deemed not at fault. They sent me to a company that fixed the collision damage but failed to recognize the engine damage to my car. The car never ran again after the accident. My engine was blown due to the accident. The collision place broke my alarm and there was parts hanging off of my car, and their response to me was that my car was not properly maintained before the accident. I showed them my maintenance records and they still refused to pay to have my engine fixed.
They claim on their commercials they are not a cut rate insurance company but they sure act like it. They should be ashamed of themselves the way they handle their customers. They are rude. They refer you to collision shops that do shoddy work and don't fix your car properly because they are cheaper. I pay a lot for insurance and did not get the service I paid for. How can insurance companies get away with treating consumers like this? It's just another case of a big company bullying and taking advantage of consumers. I paid 7500.00 dollars out of my pocket to fix my car after this car accident. I was referred to go to New Jersey department of insurance and they nothing to help me.
I happened to peruse the online driving record within my profile on Esurance's website, and I noticed that there is a ghost DUI!!! Upon my astonishment of this completely inaccurate record, I contacted both the DMV and Esurance. After faxing Esurance my driving record, I've been getting the runaround regarding any adjustments to my rate; "our underwriters are reviewing your account".
Ok? How long does it take an underwriter to review an account? Weeks? I won't receive any sort of communication until after I send a slew of emails. In an unrelated event regarding Esurance, their claims adjuster completely stopped communicating with me regarding my claim; she stopped responding to emails, voicemails... etc. I've never come across such customer service woes!!!! Especially with so much competition within the auto insurance marketplace!!!!
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